I went from Amsterdam through all of France, all of Italy, and I saw, wow, this is where I'm really going to be able to learn this craft. Feel to burn baby. Oh yeah. Is a slam dunk. Absolutely breathtaking. Welcome to the Bike to bites podcast. I'm your host, Garrett Best. This is a companion podcast to the Bike to bites television series, and you could check out the links for that in our show notes. In today's podcast, we're going to be revisiting San Diego, California, where I stopped at four different restaurants along my bike route. And my guest today is Karen Krasne, owner of Extraordinary Desserts. She's also their executive pastry chef. She's been called the Queen of Cakes in Gourmet Magazine, and in fact, Forbes Magazine listed her as one of the top 10 pastry chefs in the nation. Now, before we dive into this great content, I want to take a moment to thank our sponsor plus for their support of the Bike Divides podcast. When your tomorrows are built on technology, you need a partner with superior insight, with expertise in cutting edge innovation across ai, security cloud and workplace transformation Plus is today's modern enterprise, and e plus is where technology means more. So without further ado, I'd like to welcome my guest, Karen Croney. Karen, thank you for joining us today. Thank you for having me. So it was really exciting coming to San Diego and getting to spend some time with you and kind of reversing my stops such that I didn't fully end on a dessert, even though you're not just desserts. But I didn't fully end on a dessert before I went to my last stop, but boy, what a treat it was to, I had a long stint of about, I guess it was maybe eight miles or nine miles before I came to you as my next stop, and it was overwhelming of the senses is all I could describe my experience with you. Thank you. I aim for that. Well, you certainly delivered, and I'd love to take this time together to kind of talk a little bit about more of your journey because we touched a little bit on it in our interview, but as you know, you can only cover so much in a half hour television show once commercials are in, and it leaves us very little time when we're featuring four restaurants to fully go into detail on all of the goodness that makes you so extraordinary. There you have it. See, I had to throw that in there, but where did the journey rewind for me in terms of those initial things that you can remember, where you were first inspired that this is what you wanted to do? I mean, I think the seeds, if I might say might've happened when I was a little girl watching my grandmother and aunts and my mom, so into baking and just, I mean, we always had baked goods. My mom probably baked every other day, and so I think it came from those kinds of fresh cookies and cakes and entertaining that happened in our household. And I think I come from a long line of bakers as I began to kind of look at that. My great-grandmother, so I come from a Jewish family and they had restaurants in Chicago, and so there was a lot of cooking going on and strudel and traditional Jewish pastries, which I don't have a clue how to make any of 'em. They're far too much work for me in terms of stretching the dough and all of that. But I. Think So you don't make a good arugula? No, I don't have a clue how to do that, but I think that those were the roots, and maybe it's a little bit of ancestral DNA maybe. So these inspiring women had obviously an impact in terms of a positive impact on you, an influence obviously in terms of you wanting to maybe pursue this, but when you can remember those days of your childhood where you were around all of this baking, did you ever jump in and lend a hand? Were you kind of given the mixing bowl and the spoons and said like, come on, Karen, come help us, and is that what did it for you? I think a little bit of that, and also it was like a lot of parties and my beautiful dressing, dressing up. I mean, my grandmother was incredible and at those days that were bringing out their furs, and so I think it was the combination of baking and fashion, it was both of it together. So it was like hi and entertaining. So it was very alluring for me. So I was in that kitchen and whether I was, I don't think I remember me at that stage rolling out Joe, but I was around watching stuff come out of the oven and I was tasting stuff off of the spatulas and that kind of thing, and asking questions and kind of hanging out with the women. It's interesting that you said something that's striking to me. You said it was the baking and it was the fashion. And when I think of you and what you're doing, it all makes sense to me because I think your cakes are as beautiful as any designer dress or suit that I've ever seen anyone wear because it's not just about, you're not thinking just about what is this creation going to taste like? What is it going to smell like? But you've spent a lot of time and about what is this going to look like? How are we going to present this? How are we going to accessorize this? How are we going to make this kind of pop when it's put in front of somebody? So it actually makes some sense to me. When you describe those early influences as both the baking and then the fashion, does that resonate with you? A. Hundred percent. I mean, I'm all in on, I want to constantly be making desserts and traveling the world, but I also want to be shopping and going out to find dining and wearing fashion. And so where wherein lies, how do you put both of those together? And I think at that point when I realized that I was about 18 or 19, I was going to probably be going to France and studying there. And where else would it be like you're going to school all day and studying desserts and baking, you're eating that stuff all day, but then you're walking around and window shopping, and it was just the best world at that time for me. It all came together. The intersection of cuisine and art and culture, and one would argue cuisine is art depending on how and the way in which it's being presented and created. So it's interesting. So before you get, is France the first stop on the journey or did you, in terms of this journey of ultimately you coming to the realization that this is what you wanted to do or So after these experiences growing up with the women in the kitchen, what was the light bulb moment for you that says, okay, here's my next move. I'm going to take what has inspired me and I'm going to do something along these lines? Was it college that you ultimately. Well, I think that the next stop after being 8, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12 hanging around there, the next stop was high school and throwing keg parties and making fabulous cakes and then charging and entry for that. So we would have in high school beer kegs, and then I have all these fancy cakes and people are coming. So I think in high school I realized, oh, there's maybe there's something viable here. And then. You were an entrepreneur in high school already, I think while you were hosting keg parties, kegs and cake is basically what you were doing. There you go. And we always sent out invites that had something about that on it. And you know how invites in high school, I mean, you invite one, you get 12, and so there'd be these blowout parties. And I think after that, I ended up going to the University of Hawaii, and I got, my degree is in nutrition and sciences. So I think that I studied, something was very technical and very interesting to me in terms of nutrition's always been like my sidekick, it's my hobby, it's everything to me. And so I think while I was in college and I was doing nutrition studies, I worked in a very fancy bakery. And so there again, there's these two things going on in my life. This woman that I worked for had this incredibly fashionable pastry shop in Honolulu. She dressed to the nines. She made these fabulous desserts. I'm like her, the person that's slicing it and dicing it and selling it and ringing it up. And I'm thinking, oh my God, she's running off to Paris. I'm like, this is it. I know I'm going to get my degree in nutrition, but she's definitely doing what I need to be doing. So she was that next level of inspiration for you. You are actually watching this woman living the dream of what you wanted to be doing. And I maybe didn't know it was my dream at the time because there I was studying nutrition, I was running marathons. I was in that world of health, but I still always liked to cook, always liked to bake. I was always doing that kind of thing in college until I worked for her and I realized, oh, this is how I might put it together. Maybe I should think about instead of getting a master's and going on to becoming a registered dietician or something like that, maybe I should just move to Paris and study baking. So I think in that timeframe, while I was in college, I took off for six months and joined my mom and her husband who were traveling for a year in Europe, and I kind of jumped onto their train ride and said, my mom called me up and she said, I'm going to leave you some money. We're going to be gone for a year. I don't want you to have any emergencies, but if you should, I'm putting this money in your bank account and you'll be fine. And I thought about it and I thought about it, and I called her back and I said, you know what? I have a better idea. Why don't we take that money, buy me a ticket and I'll join you guys and I'll take off from college for a semester. And she was like, a hundred percent. So that's where I started to, I went from Amsterdam through all of France, all of Italy, and I saw, wow, this is where I'm really going to be able to learn this craft. It was apparent to me, and at that time, I think I was probably 2021. And. Became, I'm working in this pastry shop, I'm going to Europe. It all kind of came together that this is going to be my future. I'm going to have to live in Europe. I'm going to have to figure out what I'm going to do with it. So you ultimately end up doing a stint in Europe and training under some pretty magnificent people. If I recall your bio, talk to me about that experience. What brought you to Europe and ultimately to stay for a little while? Well, I think when I had been studying French in college as well, so when I got to know that I would be using the language skills, that was exciting for me too. And I think just France, the light bulb went off for me when I was traveling with my parents, seeing the food and just everything there. So I graduated college and just had in my mind that I was going to be moving to Paris, and I'm filling out applications for Cord on Blue, and I did a kind of, if you might say to my parents, I had my mother and my stepfather and I had my dad and his wife, And I gave them each this idea of what it would cost for me to live in Paris for a year. I'm going to go to this school and this school, I'm going to live here. I need this much for clothing, this much for food, dah, dah. I gave them proposals and I waited for them to write me back and say, what a great idea. We'll back you on this. This is lovely. And neither of 'em called me back. And then I finally called each one of 'em back and they said, you got to be out of your mind. We're going to fund you going into having the time of your life in Paris for a year. So it was my stepfather that said, if you come and work for me for as long as you want, he had retail stores in Seattle. If you come and work for me, I'll match whatever you earn. That was an incentive. It was great. I spent four months working for him, and he matched me, and then I took off for Paris and studied at Cord Bleu. So were you done at this point with the University of Honolulu? Yeah. You were? I had graduated and I was ready to go, but then I thought, you know what? I'll take the time and I'll work full time and he'll match me and I'll be able to then go, and I knew where I was going to be staying at someone's home in an apartment, and they were letting me live there for I didn't have to pay. Oh. Wow. That's nice. I had met that individual when I was on the trip with my parents going throughout Europe. It was just a great guy. It was platonic. And he said, Hey, if you ever come back and you are really going to study, we have an extra room in our apartment and you can live there. I don't know if he expected me to actually call and say, Hey, I am coming and I'm going to do Cord on Blue. But when I got there, the address was Ru Deli, which is across the street from the Tori, and I was like, when I rang doorbell, the lady came to the door with the hat on and the apron and Oh, hello. I mean, it was like breakfast at Tiffany's. Wow. And did ultimately, you stayed with this friend of yours and was the currency that you paid him with baking? I did bring home all the time from Cordon Blue, and I was very close to his grandmother, who, it was her apartment, and it was a really great experience, and I think I lived with them for about four or five months. Wow. So you were at Cordon Blue, you were getting your training there, perfecting your skills, and then at some point while you're there, you start to apprentice, correct. Or you start to work under some pretty big names. Yeah. Well, I kind of went, I didn't want to come back to the United States. I didn't feel like I had enough under my studies just going to cord on blue and studying baking for that eight months or whatever it was. So then I went to Lenora, who was a very big school at the time and had bakeries, and I did several STAs there. So in the French training, the STAs are very particular to certain subjects, and they go for a week, or they can go for a month if they can be sometimes three months. And they're. Very, for those that are watching and listening and don't know the term Sta, it's basically your giving of yourself to the experience of being in this kitchen while learning? Correct. Well, that's one. And then there's paid STAs where you pay someone to teach you for a limited amount of time. Got it. Okay. And so these were paid STAs, and I think they were particular to bowl cakes, individual cakes, bread and cookies, v wie, wedding cakes, jelly ice cream. I mean, the subjects go on and on and on. And I just kept doing mustache after mustache after mustache. I did an internship in a bakery in Paris as well, and that was a three month. Program. Mean isn't Paris amazing? You cannot walk, I don't think, 10 feet without running into yet another unbelievable bakery or experience of some form of deliciousness as you literally walk from neighborhood to neighborhood. I remember I filmed a television series years ago, and it was my first trip to Paris, and we actually featured, and you're going to have to correct me, my French is probably not nearly as good as you, but there was a house of gastronomy called da, do you remember? Love, love, love. And featured them in this show because of course they were famous for, what were they most famous for? Do you know? Well, I think at the time, I mean that I remember it was Macarons. Macarons. But they created the famous opera cake. They did. They said that they did. Yes, they did. It was created there now, and I did not know that, but in our interview with them, and I interviewed the daughter and the son who are running this unbelievable place, that was where the opera cake was conceived. Wow. So when I studied there, it was 1985, and this is back in the dark ages, and there was just a plethora of bakeries more than you can even imagine. Not the same these days because money's more difficult. And opening businesses in France is very, very difficult to do. The artists that, I mean, it was like you're saying, it was every block, and I would rate the bakeries A, B, and C. What got an A. Dao? I mean, there was this level of like, wow, just. You walk in there and it, what do they call 'em? The to. A. Cro bush. A cro bush. Yeah. And all the different little pieces of They're macaroons that are, they call them, what is it, A croush? Well, a croush is one. So they call the big displays of cakes and stuff, PS Monte. So. It's mounted pieces. And in that genre can be anything from a cro and bush to macarons done in a tree to topiaries of. Topiaries, whatever, topiaries. Yep. But they're all under that roof of a PS Monte. So that scored an A in your book when you would go into that place. Oh my God. And so there were A's, and then B'S would be kind of neighborhood, nice places, or should I say kind of higher end neighborhoods, good places, but not like the name, name, not Pier, may not Lare, not these names that we know today, but great places in higher end neighborhoods. And then you would have maybe not as high end neighborhood, and there would be bakeries that were just for the, you would get a Flon tart or you'd get your croissant there or something, but it wouldn't be, I didn't want to waste my calories there. I'm like, if I'm going to save my money to go somewhere, I'm going to the. The A place. The. It's so funny, not that long ago, my wife and I were in Paris, and my French is, I'm trying to learn French because, and look, I think the Parisians, I think sometimes they get a bad rap. I think there are many Parisians who are very, very friendly and they appreciate the fact that you're at least trying to use the language. And we go into this one bakery, and I'm trying to order a simple croissant, and I'm trying to ask for just the croissant, and my wife is sitting next to me and out comes, we wait for a few minutes. And I didn't realize that what I had actually ordered in French was not a croissant, but I ordered a basket of croissants. Croissants. And this whole basket of croissants of all different chocolate croissants and the regular croissant and the almond croissant, they all came out in this huge basket. Needless to say, we did our fair share of making sure that we sampled all of them. But I would say that place that we went to is probably in the B category of what you were describing. It was very, very good. But it wasn't like your a category description. So you've got all of this great stuff happening around you. When you're in Paris, you're going to cordon blue. You're living the life with living somebody, somebody who actually is from there. You're staying with them. You're getting all of these experiences and these sensory overs, sensory stimulation of all of these places that you're kind of tasting and smelling and touching with your own hands and making was, did that seal the deal for you? Was while you were there that it sealed the deal for you? Totally sealed the deal for me. And I also don't want it to seem that I had any kind of sums of money. I was really living like a student in that I would give myself this many francs. We were in Franks, not Euros, this many FRAs to spend a day I, and I'd have to figure out how I was going to make that work. I was really limiting myself how I lived. I mean, even though I would wait for a relative to come over to take me to a great dinner, I was still trying to not come back to the United States, stay there as long as I could, learn as much as I could. So I had to really think of budgetary. How am I going to stay here for five years, two years, whatever. I didn't have any idea. I just wasn't coming back to the United States. That was not my thing. So it was all about how do I extend my stay? How do I. Yeah, I mean, I taught English. I moved to Malta to work for an ambassador. I mean, I was doing everything I could to continue to have some coins in the pot and continue it. Going, wait, rewind a second. You moved to Malta. Was this while you were in France, in Paris, you decided to take a gig working for an ambassador? Yes. I thought I could extend my stay. I could still learn more. I'm still going to be using my languages. Anything seemed exciting to me except coming back to the United States and having to make a decision what the hell I was going to do. Okay. So what were you doing for working for the, were you cooking for the ambassador? Wow. Wow. So all of these little experiences, one building on the other, building on the other, just giving you little bits of extra knowledge and different things, they all kind of helped start to shape who you were going to be as a chef when you ultimately did come back to the United States. And I think that what they did is it was like I was creating a bouquet. I was getting this, that I was putting it all together and making what I. Maybe that's why you love working with flowers so much. We'll talk about that more. Honestly came in, that came in Hawaii at that start. But then in Paris, the garden shops and the floral shops mind blow, just a mind blow. Those are back in the day. If anybody ever knew this florist named Christian Tortu who was really big in Paris, and he came to New York City and he was at Taaka Shamiah in Manhattan. And there was just so much going on back in those days with floral and that kind of thing. So let's see, from all the STAs and everything that I did in Paris, it was time I'd run out. I was at the end of the runway. No more money. No. Before you go, hang on, before you go back. So there were two people while you were over in Paris that apparently that is in your history that you had some opportunities to work with. One of them was Pierre Armay, and one of them was Christophe Felder. Where did that fit into the sequence of you being there and what kind of an influence did they have on what it is that you were doing? Well, that first year and a half that I was there, they were not in my field at that point. I mean, they weren't in my sphere. I was going to cordon blue and I was going to Lera where they worked at some point in their life. So in that period of my life, it was Lenora and it was Cordon Blue, and then it was Malta, and it was as stage, and it was an internship. It was all the crap I could do to not come back to the us. Then I came back to the US and I didn't see anything that I wanted to do. So I moved to Cancun, Mexico, and I made pastry and cakes for a very fine restaurant down there and lived with the owners for about eight months. And we were really successful. Our restaurant people started coming only for the dessert, not the food. It was like that kind of thing. And they're like, oh, we should open up a bakery together here in Cancun. And I thought, you know what? If you want to invest in me, I probably should invest in myself. I should probably go back to the United States, and I probably should plant myself and get it going. So that's what happens. I came back to San Diego, I started making cakes for Neiman Marcus and for restaurants out of my dad's kitchen. And in that year period, I kept going back to France, And that's when I was studying with Christophe or Pierre. And I probably even at that point, that year and a half that I was working for Nima Marcus and everybody on the sides, I was making the cakes in my dad's home, schlepping 'em to them, making enough money to get myself back to Paris to take a week long class. And then finally my dad said to me when he couldn't make it in his kitchen anymore, there were mixers and Hobarts and everything and batch freezers. And he's like, you know what? You really need to get real. You need to find a location and open up. And so I did that and I opened a tiny, tiny little pastry shop in San Diego. And when I opened that, I still kept going back to France, and I probably went to 36 different week-long things in a period of 10, 15 years. I was so into it. I mean any profit. I just put it away and I went back to Europe. Do you remember your first cake? Yeah, it's still on our menu. What is it? I have six of 'em that are still, there was one that was called Citrons, and it's a cheesecake that had a lemon curd on the top of it and a fringe of lemon zest because lemons I could find in Cancun. I mean, it was, it was this kind of thing. So that was the og. That was the og. And what started to happen, I would make the cakes and then I would come back to the restaurant in the evening, and I would be the one that would go out to the table and see the clients after their dinner and sell them the dessert, because the guys in the restaurant had never seen anything like this before. So it was kind of up to me to say, oh, and I made this with that, and I put that and I would just sell out every night. What made at that moment that you made that first cake and you finished it, what made in that moment that it was a success, that it worked, that what you created was something that you were proud of? I didn't know it on the first cake. I think I definitely would put myself as a very humble person. I was like, holy shit, I hope this is good. I think I had bad thinking more like, oh, I have to go out in the dining room. Just praying. It wasn't a disaster. I have to sell this. I kind of know what I'm doing. I don't know. And so I think the more that people loved it and the more I sold out at night, I think I do my value. So that's very humble of you to say that your first cake didn't give you the assurance that this was spectacular and wonderful. You were second guessing yourself, you were questioning whether you were worthy, whether this is what you should, all the things that go into doing something for the first time, that when you're trying to practice a craft or an art or whatever, am I good at this? Right. But when was the moment that you realized you were good at this? When they wanted to open a bakery with me. That was the moment. When someone wanted to put their money up for me to do my art, I realized that I had a value, and I thought if they wanted to do that with me in Mexico. And let me be real clear, as a woman in an industry that was predominantly dominated by men, how wonderful was it for you to say those words that you just said to me? It was then that I knew my value. It was everything. I mean, even in Paris, every STA I went to, I was mostly the only woman. It was very rare that there would be another woman in those STAs. It was me and a bunch of guys all the time. And thank God, I have a sense of humor and I stand my ground. I never had any issues with any of'em. I mean, there might've been some particular guys that were, but nothing, no, weird. It. Was more camaraderie than anything else, right? Oh. Yeah. And laughing and you being able to stand your ground and be in the same kitchen and sandbox, if you will, as all of the rest of the team that was there. And I think it's because I had studied it so much that I knew as much as they knew for many of those times that I was in those classes, I knew when they ask a question, when the chef professor would ask a question, I could answer it. I knew when he was mixing something, what he was mixing. I. Mean, I think I really, even to this day, it was just such a phenomenal base to start with Cordon Blue only doing desserts because it's just an incredible amount of information that I was given that made me understand the whole French dessert world, where you start and where you go with it. What was that moment when you were working with all those folks in the kitchen that you felt that you've finally earned their respect? I know a lot of times when you're in the kitchen for the first time, or you're in it first time experience and you're working with a team and you all don't know each other coming out of the gate, you're forced to work in this team environment together and hopefully accomplish together what you're trying to pull off for an evening for a dinner experience or whatever. When was the moment when you're in that kitchen with all those people dominated, you were the only, you were saying you're the only woman in the room where you felt like, you know what I'm respected. Well, you would be put in teams with these guys, so you had to hold your own. You couldn't be kind of like, oh, can you find me the, can you get me the how do you wait? And I think speaking the language, and I didn't have any fear. If I didn't understand something, I asked it. And I think if I did know something, I wasn't shy about being the person that demonstrated it confident. So I think it was a little bit of confidence at some moments. And then when I wasn't confident, I didn't want to feel bad about it. Yeah, humble enough to be able to say, this is something I don't know raw enough to be able to say, instill some knowledge that I might be missing. Please. And you weren't afraid to ask. And always in the back of my mind going like, okay, if I don't know as much as they know, because like, Hey, I'm from California. Seriously, give me a break. You guys should know this. You live here. You were born with this. Give me a break, right? It's too funny. So you find out in Mexico that you're valuable, somebody wanted to bankroll you, and that was the epiphany of the aha moment where you said, you know what? Somebody else wants to bankroll me. I need to bankroll myself. I'm going to take the true entrepreneurial path. I'm going to invest in myself. But what made you think that going back to the states was where you should be doing that versus staying where you were in Mexico or going back to France when you said, I'm going to do this myself? Was it because there was a support network in San Diego where you were, what was the natural reason to go. Back? Yeah, it's that mom and that dad proposal that didn't work out in Paris. Now I can come back to them and say, Hey. Oh, hit them up again. Yeah, I could say, Hey, Francesca and Jorge wanted to do X, Y, and Z with me. Are you in or are you out? What's that? I love it. I love it. So you went back and said, now that I know my value, someone else has placed a dollar amount on it. I can go back to my own mother and father and say, well, some stranger's willing to give me the money to bankroll me in a business. Why can't you guys help me? And did they. Yeah. So they had both separately come down to Cancun and witness the whole thing, and we're like, wow, this is crazy. This is so good. I love it. We had no idea what our kid was up to half the time. You know what I mean? They finally went, oh, she had her own path. We just didn't understand it. So then at that point, they're like, we're all in. You just need to decide, is it San Diego or is it Seattle where my mom had been living for many, many years. So of course, is it rain or is it sun? Which one you want? You chose the place where there's an abundance of flowers because that became part of your signature. And where did that come from? And let's explain to the people who are listening and who are watching your cakes are, I said it at the beginning of this conversation that we're having, the beauty of your cakes is just incredible. And you use fresh flowers, you use gold leaf, you use things to make them art. In fact, when I was at the restaurant and we were talking to some of the folks that were eating at the bar who I ended up knowing someone at your restaurant who was from New Jersey, they were eating at the bar, and one of the young kids was like, I was almost afraid to eat this, because it was like I didn't want to destroy the art on my plate. Oh, that's so great. Well, I mean, that's the combination of Hawaii and Paris. I mean, Paris in those days, there was a lot of ribbons on cakes and everything was kind of cutesy and beautiful in the stores. You would go in and there would be packages of things, and they all had bows on them, and there were little flowers. And then in Honolulu, you'd have, the minute the plane lands, you just get a waft of plumeria. So it's like I had it coming from both sides. I mean, my time in Hawaii and my time in France, it just, that's where it all came together and became extraordinary desserts. And that's our signature is the gold leaf and the fresh florals. For many, many years, it was predominantly orchids and that kind of thing, because you see a lot of that in Hawaii, and you see a lot of that in Europe. You see a lot of use of orchids. So you opened your first place in San Diego, right? Yeah. And what year are we in and what was this first place? The first place opened Super Bowl Sunday in 1988. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And it was my boyfriend and I. Just graduated college at 1988. And you're opening your first restaurant in 1988. Amazing. He was watching the Super Bowl on a little TV just in case someone came in and ordered an espresso and a slice of cake. That's how we ran it. He's the front and I'm the back. And that was, we sat 10 people and we were this little itsy bitsy place. Wait, so rewind. Who opened this with you? My boyfriend. So at the time, your boyfriend opened this first place. Okay, keep going. So it was this itsy bitsy. So I hijacked him from Seattle. He had worked for my stepfather. So while I'm working for my stepfather, I'm still working both ways on this whole thing, right? So he moves down. This is years later, he let me, I'm in Europe, I'm doing my thing. We knew each other. It just sort of came back full circle, and I said, Hey, I'm going to open up this little place in San Diego. You want to move down and do it with me? That's all I had to say. And the motorcycle and the car and everything. He came down and we opened this little place, and within the first month we had a writeup on the front page of the San Diego Union paper about everything and who I was and where I came from, and blah, blah, blah. What did you lead with on that opening? What were the signature, if you can remember, what were the signature cakes and or pastries that opened that restaurant that went on day one? What did you put out of the kitchen? Well, Citrons was there, and we have a cake that's called Ock Lot, which is all about chocolate. And that was a Cancun og. Okay. We had one called John Doya, which was an OG as well from Cancun, and one that was called Lin, which was a white chocolate raspberry. So you're like, you know what? I'm going to just play all the standards. I'm going to come out, I'm going to put out what I know that I feel really good about coming out of the rest. I'm going to bring my all stars out, and then I'm going to bring the stuff that I had been doing at Neiman Marcus, because now the things that I had been doing in San Diego for some of the higher end restaurants, I was able to get imported goods in San Diego so I could branch out a little bit and make some other things. So I'm just going to do those things. I mean, you have to remember, this is 1988. There is a Starbucks in Seattle, Washington, but they have not made their way to anywhere else. So when I have espresso and cappuccino and latte on my menu, everyone that would come in would be like, what's a. Latte? And lemme tell you something. What's Pacino your coffee off the charts delicious. I had what? I was with you. What did I have? It was a Vietnamese. Oh, the Vietnamese. Oh, describe it. Describe for those that are. Did you have the one, it's sweet and condensed milk? Yes, yes. With a double shot of espresso on ice. Yummy. And I had not going to lie, I had three of them while I was there. Well. We had to get on a bike and. Ride. Let me just tell you, the ride back to the hotel was fast and furious. Oh my God. That's great. So you were serving coffee long before the American coffee craze, specialty coffee craze kind of busted. We were one of five coffee houses in San Diego, or one of the first three. There's over thousands now. So we had to tell a client every time they ordered what was inside of, what's a latte? What's a cappuccino, what's an Olay? And I'm like, oh my God. So when Starbucks opened up, I was thrilled. Everyone had to, they explained it to everyone. They educated your customers without you having to pay for it. Right? Oh my God. So that was 1988. We sat 10, and then I think we had this article written about us and then many articles, and we were overwhelmed. I mean, it was just an overnight sensation. It was like the next day a line out the door, and it just didn't stop. Now, were you doing catering at this time, like creating cakes for events at this time? Or were you simply doing them in the store? Only at this time. I was doing both because I needed to make sure I could pay the bills, and we didn't know that we had any traction from just the clients that knew I was opening from me doing all that wholesale work through Neiman Marcus and these other restaurants. So I was still selling cakes to restaurants. I was doing wedding cakes, anything. I mean, at this point, my grandmother, my mother are in there like peeling carrots for carrot cake. I mean, I didn't have any employees. So. I did really get it together. It was really what I love about this story, this part of the story is that you were very smart in that you did not put all of your eggs in a single basket. You were opening up this retail concept, but you weren't going to rest on your laurels. That the retail alone was going to be all end all to economic prosperity. You continued to do the things that you knew were making you money previously as part of the operation. So you were a little bit diversified coming out of the gate in that revenue was coming from multiple sources that would afford you the opportunity to be able to be experimental a little bit and do some of these new things that you were trying. I mean, the funniest thing about all of it, I was so young that I didn't really care if it worked or didn't work. I was already three feet out the door going back to France, you know what I mean? I was doing this. I believed in myself and I wanted to do it. And it goes back to throwing parties in high school. I'm throwing a party every night at my restaurant. I love it. And then this business blows up though. So now it explodes. At this point, were you doing anything other than the pastries and the coffee? You hadn't ventured into the other food items that you now have at your second restaurant, which we're going to talk about in a second, but this was purely a dessert place at this point. Correct. Only dessert. And there was nothing like it in San Diego. No one did that. And it's still a rare thing to just be selling desserts and coffee in terms of high end, not just because we didn't make croissants And we didn't make danishes and things like that. At that time, it was really cake and cookies and high end. I remember someone saying, oh, are you going to make soup and salad? I remember them coming in, oh, are you going to ever do soup and salad or scones? I'm like, oh, I was horrified. Why do I have to make soup and salad to sustain myself? I'm making desserts. I'm a pastry chef. I was like, really? Like, okay, hold on. And then scones, I'm like, scones. I didn't train on scones. I don't know how to make a s scone. It's funny how that all cookies, I'm like, oh, they don't make cookies in France. You. Know what I mean? You make a very good cookie. You shared one with me. I don't think it made it into the episode, but you made me a peanut butter. Oh, that aloha peanut butter cookie. It's vegan, right? Vegan. It's insane. Do you ship those? Yeah. Okay. So at the end of this, we're going to tell everybody how they can get many of the things that you make because they can order them and you will ship them, but we'll talk about that in a second. So the restaurant's blowing up. You're 19, it's 1988. When you open, you're with this boyfriend, I take it You didn't marry this person? No. Okay. So he. Fired me and I fired him. Okay. So you guys parted ways, stayed friends, I would imagine. Yes. Yes. Okay. And now you're, at what point in the journey do you decide that you have this epiphany that you now want to open a second location? Well, so we stayed together for five years of the business, and that was really in the infant stage of the company. And so we grew that particular location to seeding, I want to say about 85 to 90. And then when we parted ways, I was a little freaked out that it was going to be me running this whole thing. Now I have to be the front and the back, and I'm better in the back than the front, because in the front I don't get to choose when I am on, I'm on all. The time. In the back, I'm just like, you. Can hide in the kitchen. Borders. So I just did a lot of, I hired the right people to help me run the front, young college management people. And then I got some very good PR people behind me. And I hired a man in San Francisco who was a person who grew businesses, and I was under his tutelage for about five years, and he's the one that guided me and groomed me to create the second location. Alright. So where is the first location in the geography of San Diego? Where is the first location? The first location is in Balboa Park in that area. And I actually ended that one and moved it two blocks away in a brand new building. And I did that in 2019. So. After it had been 20 something years old. And you moved it, but still in that I shut. It down. The building was just falling apart and moved it and put a brand new, gorgeous, I mean, it's only a block and a half away, and it matches the brand of the location that you came to film. So it's much more contemporary and a better, I feel like a better presentation of our work. So 2019, right before the pandemic is when. You, A year before the pandemic. You moved it. Okay. And then the second was the second location open when Yeah, the second location now is 20 years. 20 Years. The one that I visited you in. Yeah. Oh my God. It looks brand spanking new when you walk in that door and absolutely. It's beautiful. It's kind of got an industrial. The architect is Jennifer Lu and she is wonderful. And she did the second, I should say the original location. It's new digs are by her, and they match the vibe of the location you came to. So they're both very much like jewel boxes. Oh yeah. It's a great vibe. Unbelievable, aesthetically pleasing environment. And I loved a little patio out on the second location that you can go eat outside if you want to. I mean, it's absolutely beautiful and worth checking out both of them. I have a question regarding that second location. So when we came in, before we started filming, we had just arrived at doing some filming of cycling shots that we were getting. The crew came in and they were breaking for some lunch, and you guys serve a decent full menu lunch out of that restaurant. And I know you were jokingly saying, why do I have to do salads and soups? But everybody was raving about your salads and soups at this second location. They were like, they've never had anything like it in their entire life. So clearly you know how to do salads and soups too. Who would've. Known? Yeah, I think what happened is after the original tiny location was open for about 10, 12 years, I was starting to get a little itchy myself, and I really wanted to have a business that had wine and cheese and all the things that I enjoy in France besides desserts. And so when we got the second location, it's 8,000 square feet. I had to do something more than desserts because it couldn't sustain the rent. And so that's when I dove into the world of wines and savory and then, I mean, I'm like, oh my God, I don't want anyone to think I'm a food chef. That would be scary putting that out there. So I just wanted to make simple, delicious, homemade dressings, paninis that were just chock full of wonderful organic things that were like my cakes, but in a sandwich, layers of weird combinations and textures. And. That's where that ended up. We talked about the relocation of the first location. That was in 2019, but you had already opened the second location at that point. When did the second, so 20 years. I can tell you 2003, because the day I signed the lease is the day I found out I was pregnant with my daughter. A double gift. A double gift. Yep. We're opening a 8,000 square foot Titanic when I'm used to this little cottage and I'm also having a baby. Okay. My life has got to change. So I'm just trying to track everything in the timeline. So boyfriend, first business partner out, you on your own. You now growing the business under the tutelage of this mentor that you had. And I'm traveling the world and working my ass off, and I'm single and I'm loving it, and I'm just having a fantastic life. I'm dating here and there and I'm doing, but I'm always cake first, dessert first business first. And then along that line, I guess it was in 2000, I met my current husband, and it was 2003 when I signed the lease and when I was pregnant with our daughter. Nice. So now I'm caught up on the timeline. And then the second location's been operating now since that time and doing unbelievably Well, LI was with you, and I'm going to talk about this in a second. I was with you and I got to experience some, first of all, I got to go in the kitchen with you and make some bread pudding, which was fantastic, out of these croissants and chocolate, and it was just loveliness. And then you brought out it was a chocolate croissant made. But then you brought out, when we were sitting at the table, what I would consider what many people would consider, and I think you yourself would consider a signature, which is your passion fruitcake. Right? Love it. And that was mind blowing. That was a complete experience of every single S sense visually, the smell, the taste, the textures. You taught me something that day when we were together, which I think is really interesting, which is how to properly eat one of your cakes. And you told me, because the instinct is when a piece of cake or a piece of pie gets put on the table, what do we instinctively do? We pick up our fork and we go to go right to the very end of the pie. Cut, right? The front. Yeah, the tip. The very tip. And you said, do not start at the tip. You said to me that you really want to start in the back because that's where all of the textures and the flavors and all the deliciousness is in the back of the cake. So your first bite should be there. Is that something that you advise everybody when they or is that just a special pro tip? Pro tip for me? Well, when you go from the back, then the whole cake falls over. I don't tell people to do that, but I mean, if you think about it, when you eat a slice of cake and you start from the tip, really, that first bite did not have all the flavor. No, it was the tip. It's the least amount of cream, the least amount. There's probably not any fruit in it. You can't cut it if the fruit's in the tip. So. The fruit in all is more towards the back. So it's funny, when the waiter or the waitress puts the cake down now of moving forward, they should turn the cake and face it in the other direction. Then someone can ask the question, why did you turn the cake that way? And you could then say, well, or maybe not. Maybe it's inside baseball. A secret. It's. Kind a secret inside baseball. I tell you the start at the end, you might not finish the cake this way. You start in the beginning. It's kind of like slow rev up to the insanity of getting towards. The end. Oh no. See, you knew me very well. I like diving right in. That was perfect. That was absolutely perfect. And then we had a chocolate cake with hazelnut butter and boysenberry jam. And that's the gia, that's the. Og. That was, if you're a chocolate lover, my goodness. Absolutely delicious love. That is decadent. Decadent. You open the second location, and then when does this come about? 2012. 13. Yeah. So this is your book, extraordinary Cakes. It's gotten rave reviews, right? Yeah. You were also, I think at one point labeled by Forbes Magazine and one of the best 10 pastry chefs in the nation. So why should you not have a beautiful, and the photography in this book is incredible, so we can talk about where everybody can pick up their copy. You were so very sweet and kind that you signed mine and it was very, very a wonderful gift. I want to just read a line in your preface of the book where it says, I guess you could say that cake has become my calling card as well as my calling. That kind of sums up you. You think about the success that you've had and the world that you've created. That's a pretty powerful little statement that you put out there, front and center in this book. Talk to me about that. What makes you say that? I think that I'm very comfortable standing behind my cake. I mean, I take cake everywhere I go on a plane, I've got a box. I don't care if it's Sydney, Australia. When are you coming to New Jersey? I have a lovely little spot in our home where we have a little extra guest room. You can come and stay anytime. Just make sure you pack some unbelievable, extraordinary desserts. For sure. That's a deal when I come that way. Yeah, I. Really love what I do. And I mean, it's 30, oh God, 35 years into it or something. And I love what I do and I love that it's afforded me to not only have a lifestyle that keeps me able to open more windows and doors for my own personal knowledge and for that of my staff. I keep them inspired, but I also now am at a point in my life where I'm able to give back and do more legacy work and that kind of thing. And I'm just so grateful that I got to do something that I love and I still get to do it every day, and I'm able to still, now I'm important not only to myself and I prove my parents whatever, but now people that ask me to help them in fundraisers and things like that, I feel like, oh my God, I am important in helping other people that have less. But it's just a great fold for me. Absolutely. It's wonderful. And I just want to show this. We can put it up on the screen, but that is the passion fruit. The. Passion fruit. That is so good. This is the piece, the resistance. You have to come in and try that. And we're going to talk about how you can sample, and you wrote this, I read an article that talked about this was truly a passion project for you, the book, right? And without your husband, I think you credit your husband, you credit another woman, Christina Wright, as being very instrumental in bringing this to life, bringing your vision. To life. Oh, they kept me organized. They kept me. I mean, there's no way I could have done it without either of them. And we were under construction in our home. The kitchen was out of commission. We were building a new kitchen. So it was just like, oh my God, I'm writing this book. And I had to do all the testing in our kitchen at restaurant. And then I had nine testers throughout the US that were testing the recipes for me, because baking it in a commercial oven is one thing, but then doing it in a home oven whether you're in Las Vegas, New York, Seattle, it's totally different. Oven is different. And I love that Oli, great publisher, known for many things, but this certainly made sense that this is who put your book out. So really very special. And we can talk about how to get that. I want to talk briefly. Coming to San Diego and designing the bike route that we did, we did a 21.6 mile route and we started in the gas lamp district. We were staying at the Westin Hotel there. And our first visit was with Cafe 2, 2, 2. And the owner, Terrell, and you guys, I would true, I would say trailblazers for entrepreneurs, women in this hospitality space that are doing great things. So it was really kind of cool starting my ride. That was the first place that I stopped. And from there I went on, went out to the coast and I went to a place called Blue Water Seafood. Have you been there? No. So it's out by the, what do they call it? Ocean. It's in Ocean Beach. Oh. We have one in closer to us in our neighborhood. There's two. Right? No, I went out to the one I wanted to get a good ride in, so I went out to Ocean Beach, and lemme tell you, probably one of the hardest rides I did was going up those streets that overlooked the ocean. Oh yeah, those are tough. They were tough. I think I had a 6.8% grade at one point going up this steep street, and it was a lot of fun. And then I rewarded myself leaving Blue water seafood by of course stopping at your place and spending time with you. And then ending our trip back at the hotel where sometimes I think hotel restaurants get a bad wrap because they think, oh, it's the hotel restaurant. But we ate at the Bronze Bird, which is in the hotel. Fantastic. And I never had a, and if you haven't been there, you should go there. Never before in my life ever did I ever have a cheeseburger pizza, something worth the experience. That's all I have to say. So that was our trip. And of course I wanted you to come back because I thought your story was so fascinating and everybody's story is fascinating, but there was so much that we didn't get to cover in our time together that I thought this time together in our podcast would be a lot of fun for us to cover more ground. And I'm glad that we have I, I'd love to ask you what's next for Karen? I definitely want to do another book. Okay. That's definitely on my deck and I want to make it maybe extraordinary, simple desserts from home, which simple's all relative, but it just won't take you five days to make a cake. Yeah, I was going to say in the book, you talk about some of these cakes take five days. You have to do them in steps. But I mean, my promise to you is that I'm going to try to make one of these and even if it's a disaster, I'm going to try. So I'll give you enough heads up when I'm coming so that you can. Sample how I did and tell me if I get a path, if I fall into the A, b, or C category of your grading system that you had in Paris, I said, or failure completely, but hopefully not. Anyhow, so you want to do another book and I love that idea to kind of have it be more about accessible dessert making within your home and being able to do things that's kind of fun. And taking other desserts, maybe things that you can purchase and turning 'em into something lovely that you can serve as dessert. Just more tips and things like that. And beautiful photography. Of course. I love doing that. And then I would love to, the pandemic taught me that we have a very good to go model for our restaurants. And so I would like to open up some smaller locations that don't actually have the kitchens in them that are in San Diego area, but going north more and maybe have that sort of model so smaller and you can just take it to go or sit in a communal space in wherever that location might be in. Enjoy. Oh, I love that. So you can pick it up, take it out and go home with it or what have you. I love that idea. Yeah, it really showed me that it was a profitable model for us and that we don't need to have all the dishwashers and the kitchens and the baking and everything going on. Now for everyone that's listening and watching you do ship, what is it that you're making that is shippable to people around the country that want to get a little taste of San Diego and the extraordinary dessert experience? What is it that you're shipping from your store to the outside world? Well, right now we're shipping cookies for the most part. Cookies in our granolas and our jams and our jellies and things like that. Not cakes. I haven't figured out how to get you a cake that looked like it left San Diego and still looks sig gift to you. I don't know how people are doing that, but I've been kind of looking into that a little bit right now and seeing how does that actually. Work. So for now, they're going to just have to come to San Diego, ride the route that we rode on bike to bikes, stop at extraordinary desserts and experience it firsthand for themselves. So let's talk about where people can find you either through social media and if they wanted to order one of these beautiful books. Where do they go to find all things extraordinary desserts, all things Karen Croney? Well, on our website, which is extraordinary desserts.com, we have a whole huge shop on there, everything that you can order. And the books are only sold through us. We're on our third printing and we're the only people carrying it. So I'm happy to sign them and we ship them out all over the place so you can get a signed copy that way. Oh, you mean my signed copy isn't like a collector's edition. I was like, wow. Well, I wrote to you personally. You. Did. You did. And you sent me, I do you know what you wrote? I'm going to read it to everybody you wrote, Gary, cheers to you and Years of extraordinary Baking love carrot. That was very sweet. Very. Sweet. Yeah. I try to personalize them when they purchase them from us and they want it for a gift or for. Themselves. Yeah, it makes it more special. Yeah. So extraordinary desserts.com and then on Instagram, where can they find you? It's extraordinary desserts or you can follow me, Karen Krasney. And we have different accounts and we kind of synced our things together and we're always posting the latest dessert. We're now doing high tea. I mean, whatever we're doing, it's out there. We post about four times a week. Ooh, you do high tea? Yeah, I just started that in December. At both locations. Just at the downtown location. Oh my god, it's such a hit. So is that like on Sunday only? No, Monday through Friday, two 30 to five 30. Wow. And do you the whole stack triple. Yeah. Wow. And we're making the panini things on the top plate and then the mini desserts. People are, I got to come back. I got to come back. You do. Wow. Well, you've given me something to ride back to San Diego for, so Absolutely. Anytime come visit me. Will do. And likewise, I can't thank you enough for being part of the Bike Bites television series and the Bike de Bites podcast series. Really appreciate your time today. My pleasure. I love it. Thank you Karen, so much. Take care. Take care. For more information on this episode as well as other episodes in this series, head over to our website at Bike to Bites podcast.com. You can also find us on YouTube at Bike to Bites. Be sure to give us a like and subscribe while you're there. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, we would appreciate a five star rating and a glowing review. It really does help spread the word. Check out our Instagram at Bike debits tv and be sure to follow my personal Instagram at Garrett Abe, where I post shots of my daily rides and interesting places I visit. If you're interested in watching the Bike Debits TV show, please visit bike de bytes.com. We also have some really cool stuff of Bike de bytes, apparel, and some other things that you can check out while you're there. None of this would be possible without a great sponsor like e plus. And for that we are very, very thankful. Plus helps organizations harness the power of technology for truly transformative results. From AI and security to cloud and workplace transformation. Plus brings you the right solutions at the right time, in the most efficient way. Plus is on the frontline of today's modern enterprises. Check them out@eplus.com. Well, until next time, pedal, eat and repeat.